Why don't bank credits/debits post instantly?

That's about the whole question. (US-centric) I just transferred money between two of my own personal accounts with Chase Bank. Why do the transfers take several days to go through? Also, looking at what's waiting to post, why don't electronic transfers from other sources (the gas I bought yesterday, or the puppy vaccine from this morning) post? It seems to me (which is why I ask the question) that if you have the information, there's no sense to wait.

posted by philokalia at 2:42 PM on September 3, 2011

posted by Patbon at 3:01 PM on September 3, 2011

posted by phunniemee at 3:03 PM on September 3, 2011

posted by jeffamaphone at 3:06 PM on September 3, 2011

posted by Max Power at 4:29 PM on September 3, 2011

posted by Seeba at 8:49 PM on September 3, 2011

posted by delmoi at 9:27 PM on September 3, 2011

posted by dabitch at 3:41 AM on September 4, 2011

posted by ComfySofa at 12:10 PM on September 4, 2011

Credit Card Fraud at Chase.com: How Bad Training and Bad Security Processes Are Bad for Business (and Customers)

This is a story of a credit card fraud that happened to my wife and I just before the holidays. It’s an amazing one that apparently involves insiders working at Chase.com and UPS, but the fraud is only half the story. The other half is about incompetence, poor call center training, broken security processes, and how once again the weakest link in any business process is the person trying – or not trying – to do their job.

So if you’re counting on Chase to protect your identity or work proactively to solve a serious identity theft against you, read on. You may want to reconsider placing your precious identity in the hands of this clown car masquerading as the largest U.S. bank.

This is also a story about how, once the rogue human element is inserted into the picture, automated call centers and logistics systems make it too easy to steal – in this case by intercepting newly ordered Chase credit cards from a UPS distribution center, using a pilfered security code to activate the cards, and then going on a heckuva holiday spending spree. And it’s the story of how hard it is for one of the biggest banks in the world to fathom that it’s just been stung by a not –very-sophisticated inside job. Chase would rather blame the victim than heal itself.

The story begins one morning three weeks ago with the receipt of an email from Chase, the issuer of my Southwest airlines credit card, that alerted me to the pending arrival of a “the new card that I ordered.” It also cautioned me to contact Chase if I hadn’t ordered it, and as I hadn’t ordered it I immediately called the call center.

And thus began a comedy of errors that has run now for three solid weeks. First I was told not to worry, that this must be some kind of routine re-order. I persisted, and was then told that indeed my wife had ordered the new cards the night before. I told them she hadn’t, and I was asked, I swear, if I was sure that she hadn’t. Yes, I was sure. I was even asked if I had actually asked her if she had ordered the card. This conversation was going south quickly.

Having filled my idiot quotient already, I forced the call center agent to put her supervisor on, and he and I determined that some sort of fraud was happening, though with a curious twist: the new card was being sent to our home address. Nonetheless, we cancelled the card, retired the account number, and ordered new cards to be sent to us. And we put a new security password on the account so that all future activity would be required to “go through” the new password. For the record, the new password was written down on a piece of paper and my wife and I then entered it into our respective computer systems using a relatively elaborate code.

That afternoon, armed with the tracking number for the fraudulent card (but not the new ones, Chase didn’t give that tracking number to me) I began to track the package on the UPS site. At 3 pm a notation showed that the packaged was being diverted from home delivery to a pickup at a UPS facility, on the request of the receiver – not me, but obviously the woman who had pretended to by my wife. This made some sense, as it wasn’t obvious how the thief planned to get a hold of the card once it had been delivered to my house. It would be soon, however: I hadn’t counted on the UPS side of this scam.

At 6 pm a new notation showed up in the UPS record, indicating that the thief had changed her mind and was now requesting it to be delivered to the house. Which meant that we were going to get three cards the next morning (a Friday): the two new cards and the original fraudulently ordered card.

Friday morning comes and around 11 am I get a call from Chase, checking on some recent activity with my new card. New card? Yes, one of the cards I ordered the previous day – and secured with a new password known only to Chase and me – was being used at the Apple store in San Mateo, CA (above 45 minutes south from here) to great effect,while the other one was shopping its little heart out at SunGlass Hut in Napa, this time 45 minutes to the north. Merry Xmas.

Having never seen these cards, or even having an inkling of the new account number, I was dumbfounded. I immediately asked to speak to a supervisor, and was told that the cards were signed for at my house that morning at 9:50 am. I told them that was impossible, as I was home all morning and saw no no sign of UPS.

Maybe, it was suggested, with the utmost seriousness, UPS had showed up and someone waiting outside my house signed for them. Also not possible – Amber the wonder dog goes into serious intruder alert mode at the site of a UPS truck, and would have been barking up a storm at the site of a truck and some stranger in front of my house receiving some packages. In other words, the package had not only not been delivered, it hadn’t even made it to a delivery truck but had been stolen from the UPS distribution center in San Pablo, CA sometime after its arrival scan. (I checked with a UPS driver on this: had the thief diverted it from a delivery truck, the package would have been located in the electronic manifest of the truck and the driver would have become suspect #1 in about two seconds. UPS drivers, unlike the seasonal help UPS hires in the DC during the holidays, are pretty unlikely to risk their jobs and pensions for a relatively minor fraud like this one.)

Then, I asked the Chase supervisor the two questions that have bedeviled Chase since that day: 1) how can you activate a new card that is password protected without the password, and 2) how can someone intercept a package from UPS without a tracking number? Bear in mind, I had encrypted the new password on our computers and I had never received the tracking number.

Absent a reasonable explanation that has escaped me for these two weeks, I have to conclude that it was an inside job: Someone at Chase stole my wife’s identity, ordered the first card, and then, noticing that it had been cancelled, stole the new password and tracking info, passing the latter on to his or her partner at UPS and using the former to activate the card. The fact that this theory seems possible is reinforced by Chase’s inability to actively investigate this fraud: Their investigative incompetence has left a security hole a mile wide in their credit card operations, and anyone who knows what I know about how Chase deals with fraud would have easily been able to pull this off with some reasonable assurance that Chase would be unable to figure it out.

Indeed, this is where the farcical elements of the story begin to pile up. Chase has now spent the last three weeks attempting, and failing, to figure out how this fraud could have taken place without the involvement of someone inside Chase: it’s clear that their investigation is centered on a desperate attempt to show that no inside job took place.

Instead, some pretty silly alternative scenarios have been suggested. The best was the theory that someone in my house listened in on the phone call and obtained the new password. I have interrogated my wife, my two young children, and Amber, and none of them apparently stole the data. (Amber broke and confessed to sleeping in the bed while we were out of the house, but that was it on our end.) Chase has also continued to assert that no identity fraud has taken place from inside Chase, and that, rest assured, Chase is working to resolve the matter. (I have learned that “rest assured” is Chase’s little call center mantra, it’s probably on a poster hanging up next to a picture of Chairman James Dimon. Trust me, it’s one of the great oxymorons of modern business.)

And, just to be clear, without revealing too much, if this fraud was accomplished by listening in on my phone calls, the scam could have been much more comprehensive. Nuff said on that.

There is one other scenario that has degree of possibility with respect to authorizing the pilfered credit cards: judging from weeks of dealing with Chase’s call centers, including people who claim to be two and three levels above the level one responders, it is possible that some gross incompetence in the Chase call center allowed the person who diverted the cards from UPS to activate them without the password (using my mother’s maiden name), though I was assured by Chase that a call center rep can’t even enter the activation screen without the password. This still doesn’t solve the question of how someone can pull a packaged out of a UPS distribution center without a tracking number, unless another poorly trained Chase call center rep gave out the UPS tracking number to a caller without correctly verifying their identification.

I leave open this possibility because it turns out that poor training and gross incompetence is Chase’s forte when it comes to call center operations. One of many examples: After the replacement cards were intercepted from UPS, we had them cancelled and two new cards ordered, with yet another new password set up for the account. The new password, I found out five days later, hadn’t actually been entered into the system, or it had been entered and erased by someone. It was a heady moment when I first called in and tried to access the account with the new password, only to find that I had to use a previous password to check on a fraud notification alert (see below on how they mucked this one up too).

Chase, in a rare moment of humility, acknowledged this failure to record the new password was an error. The fact that a call center managers (this was a manager) is unable to press ‘enter’ when placing a new password on an account, means almost anything is possible inside Chase, much more probable than my wife hiding the fact that she’s ordered new credit cards or that someone is lurking in the basement listening to my phone calls.

One more in the list of noteworthy failures inside Chase: when I got the new cards on Saturday, I notified the Chase fraud desk that I would be traveling to Boston that Mon. (which is why I was still even working with this company: I needed a credit card for my trip and my only other one was Amex.) The following Wed. I received a travel notification alert from Chase that indicated that someone had placed a notification of pending travel on the account. I called (and was rejected from the account because I was using a new password that had actually never been entered. Luckily I still remembered the old password), I found out that the travel alert was the one I had placed on the account five days earlier. Five days! The people who went on the shopping spree has spent thousands of dollars in the space of an hour, imagine what someone could do for the five days it takes for the fraud alert to show up. So much for a proactive fraud alerting system.

The story unfortunately has yet to be resolved. Chase has basically been trying to end its investigation of the fraud for the last three weeks, calling me periodically to say that their Center of Excellence has determined that no fraud occurred. I have asked three different supervisors to provide answers to my two questions regarding the password and tracking number, and after a week there has been no answer. They did admit the other day that there had been a pattern of credit card diversions from UPS in Northern California, but that of course has nothing to do with Chase.

At this point the only reason I am hanging on to the cards is to see how this will all pan out and to see what Chase is going to do for me once they finally admit that the fraud occurred inside Chase. I’m thinking a three-year subscription to a credit card alert service for starters. Just starters.

So, the moral of this long-winded story is simple: It’s possible to be the largest bank in the United States and be ill-equipped to deal with credit card fraud to a shocking degree. Despite however many millions Chase must spend on protecting its credit card holder, it’s clear that they don’t train their people well, they don’t have strong, bullet proof security processes, their investigation processes are pitiful, and they’re overall default mode is to blame the victim and ignore the obvious.

But most important is how vulnerable Chase is to relatively clever gang of credit card thieves working inside Chase and its logistics partner, UPS. This is the Wikileaks effect in the consumer credit world: you can build the best security system in the world, and yet a single individual with inside access can circumvent it with little effort. The trick is to not only be able to prevent such an occurrence – some of which can be done by better hiring practices, particularly during seasonal hiring rushes – but also to be able to consider the impossible – an inside job – and investigate it thoroughly and passionately. Chase has been mailing this investigation in from the get-go. They need to clean it up before they kill off whatever reputation they think they still deserve.

11 Reasons Why The Federal Reserve Is Bad

Why chase bank is badMillions of Americans are waking up to the fact that the Federal Reserve is bad, but very few of them can coherently explain why this is true. For decades, an unelected, privately-owned central bank has controlled America’s currency, run our economy and has driven the U.S. government to the brink of bankruptcy. It operates in great secrecy, it has never been subjected to a comprehensive audit and yet the actions it takes have an impact on every single American. It is an institution designed to drain wealth from the U.S. government (and ultimately from the American people) and transfer it to the ultra-wealthy. Have you ever wondered why a sovereign nation such as the United States has to borrow United States dollars from anyone? Have you ever wondered why a sovereign nation such as the United States does not even issue its own currency? Have you ever wondered why we allow a group of unelected private bankers to run our economy?

Those are some very important questions. Hopefully what you are about to read will open the eyes of many. The truth is that our financial system is centrally-controlled and centrally-managed by a group of banking oligarchs who have constructed an ever-expanding debt spiral which has been efficiently designed to slowly transfer all wealth into their hands.

The following are 11 reasons why the Federal Reserve is not good for the United States….

1 – The Federal Reserve was created as a way to enslave the U.S. government with debt. The truth is that the U.S. government only goes into debt if it chooses to. Theoretically, one day that U.S. government could simply decide to print as many U.S. dollars as it wants and pay off all government debts. But under the current system that is not allowed. You see, today the U.S. government does not issue any money. The Federal Reserve issues all money. That is why they are called “Federal Reserve notes”.

Under the current regime, whenever the U.S. government wants more currency to be created it has to go into more debt.

If you will pull a dollar bill out and take a look at it, you will notice that it says “Federal Reserve Note” at the top.

It belongs to the Federal Reserve.

The U.S. government cannot simply go out and create new money whenever it wants under our current system.

Instead, it must get it from the Federal Reserve.

So, when the U.S. government needs to borrow more money (which happens a lot these days) it goes over to the Federal Reserve and asks them for some more green pieces of paper called Federal Reserve Notes.

The Federal Reserve swaps these green pieces of paper for pink pieces of paper called U.S. Treasury bonds. The Federal Reserve either sells these U.S. Treasury bonds or they keep the bonds for themselves (which happens a lot these days).

So that is how the U.S. government gets more green pieces of paper called “U.S. dollars” to put into circulation. But by doing so, they get themselves into even more debt which they will owe even more interest on.

So every time the U.S. government does this, the national debt gets even bigger and the interest on that debt gets even bigger.

Now, apologists for the Federal Reserve system are quick to point out that the Federal Reserve does not make much of a profit. Once a “statutory dividend” of 6% is paid to member banks and a capital account surplus is “maintained”, the rest of the profits of the Federal Reserve go back to the U.S. Treasury.

Problem solved, right?

The point is not how much of a profit the Federal Reserve makes or does not make.

The point is that the Federal Reserve is a tool for creating U.S. government debt which slowly drains our national wealth and which ends up greatly enriching the global elite.

As of July 1st, the U.S. government had spent $355 billion so far in 2010 on interest payments to the holders of the national debt.

Have you ever wondered who gets all that money?

The truth is that the wealthiest individuals around the globe have been getting very rich for a very long time off of government debt.

2 – The Federal Reserve creates money out of thin air. In a previous article, I noted how this fact comes out in congressional hearings and yet the American people just don’t seem to get too upset about it….

During a recent Joint Economic Committee hearing on Capital Hill, U.S. Representative Ron Paul directly confronted Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke about this 1.3 trillion dollars. As Ron Paul described how this 1.3 trillion was just created out of thin air, all Bernanke could do was nod his head. Why? Because it was the truth.

3– The huge predator megabanks that now dominate the U.S. banking system use the Federal Reserve as a tool to make money. One of the ways they do this is called the U.S. Treasury carry trade. What happens is that the Federal Reserve lends huge amounts of money to the megabanks for next to nothing, and then these megabanks use all that cash to buy U.S. government debt. This little “trick” helped enable four of the biggest U.S. banks (Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America and Citigroup) to have a “perfect quarter” with zero days of trading losses during the first quarter of 2010. Wouldn’t you like to have a perfect batting average?

4 – The Federal Reserve devalues our currency. Since the Federal Reserve was created in 1913, the U.S. dollar has lost 96 percent of its purchasing power. The truth is that just a two percent inflation rate will wipe out half of your purchasing power within a single generation. In the chart below, you can clearly see that the beginning of the rapid rise of inflation in the United States coincided with the creation of the Federal Reserve….

5 – The Federal Reserve manipulates the U.S. economy by setting national interest rates. By keeping rates high or low, the Federal Reserve has the power to create economic growth or to destroy it. They have the power to inflate massive bubbles and to pop them. Most Americans give way too much credit and blame to presidents like Bush or Obama for how the economy is doing. The truth is that they really don’t have that much control over the economy compared to the Federal Reserve.

6 – The Federal Reserve also controls the national money supply. They can pump trillions into the economy or pull trillions out without being accountable to anyone. This can have disastrous consequences. For example, after the U.S. stock market crash of 1929, the Federal Reserve continued to contract the money supply. Many analysts believe that this was one of the key things that precipitated the Great Depression.

7– The Federal Reserve is not part of the U.S. government. The truth is that the Federal Reserve is about as “federal” as Federal Express is. In defending itself against a Bloomberg request for information under the Freedom of Information Act, the Federal Reserve objected by declaring that it was “not an agency” of the U.S. government and therefore it was not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. It is kind of funny how Fed officials are always talking about how important their “independence” is, but whenever anyone starts criticizing them for being private they start stressing their ties with the government.

8 – The Federal Reserve has become far, far too powerful. The reality is that those running the Federal Reserve are not elected and yet have an enormous amount of control. In fact, Ron Paul recently told MSNBC that he believes that the Federal Reserve is more powerful than Congress…..

“The regulations should be on the Federal Reserve. We should have transparency of the Federal Reserve. They can create trillions of dollars to bail out their friends, and we don’t even have any transparency of this. They’re more powerful than the Congress.”

&– The Federal Reserve is dominated by Wall Street and the New York banks. The New York representative is the only permanent member of the Federal Open Market Committee, while other regional banks rotate in 2 and 3 year intervals. The former head of the New York Fed, Timothy Geithner, is now U.S. Treasury Secretary. The truth is that the Federal Reserve Bank of New York has always been the most important of the regional Fed banks by far, and in turn the Federal Reserve Bank of New York has always been dominated by Wall Street and the major New York banks.

10– Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke wants to completely eliminate minimum reserve requirements for banks. Fractional reserve banking has always been a way that the bankers have conned the public, but now Bernanke wants to get rid of the pretense of “reserves” altogether.

It is almost too bizarre to believe, but it is right there in black and white on the Federal Reserve’s own website….

The Federal Reserve believes it is possible that, ultimately, its operating framework will allow the elimination of minimum reserve requirements, which impose costs and distortions on the banking system.

11 – The Federal Reserve is not accountable to anyone. The Federal Reserve has never undergone a true comprehensive audit since it was created back in 1913. Ron Paul’s proposal to audit the Federal Reserve, which had previously been co-sponsored by 320 members of the U.S. House of Representatives, ultimately failed by a vote of 229-198.

But shouldn’t the American people be able to see what is going on inside the Federal Reserve?

Shouldn’t we have some way to keep them accountable?

After all, they have an incredible amount of power over us, shouldn’t we have at least a little bit of power over them?

Unfortunately, the truth is that they desperately do not want light to be shined on the elaborate “shell game” that they are running.

Have you ever wondered if it was just a coincidence that the personal income tax was implemented just about the same time that the Federal Reserve was created?

Why does the U.S. government have to tax us?

Why can’t the U.S. government just print up all the money that it needs?

Well, the way that our Congress spends money that would probably create horrific hyperinflation, but that is the subject for another article.

The point is that the U.S. government should not have to get U.S. dollars from someone else.

If you take a few minutes to stop and think about it, an America where there is no Federal Reserve, no personal income tax and no IRS is not that hard to imagine.

If the U.S. government functioned just fine without all of them at one time, then why couldn’t the U.S. government function just fine without all of them now?

The system we have now clearly is not working. The Federal Reserve was supposed to guarantee that our financial system would be perfectly stable, but in reality our financial system has become much more unstable.

It is time for different thinking. It is time for the U.S. government to take back control of our currency and of our economy. It is time to start electing some people with common sense to represent us in Washington.

So what do you think of the Federal Reserve? Feel free to leave a comment with your opinion….

The bottom line, the Federal Reserve is nothing short of a mafia style ponzi scheme that has sucked the life blood out of the nation and when they are done, they will discard the nation like an empty shell.

The insiders of the Federal Reserve, one of which who most likely sits on their board is David Rockefeller. He more than any single citizen of the United States is guilty of high treason. He has stated publically and even in his own autobiography enough evidence combined with his action in the CFR, Trilateral Commission and the Bilderbergs to convict him of Treason.

I suggest, on behalf of the American people, that this man singularly, despite his age, be brought up on charges of treason, conspiracy, money laundering and a host of other charges.

No other person in American history has done so much to damage our wealth and sovereignty.

The federal reserve isnt all that bad, it does have some good points. Its just all about the way you think about it. Think about it this way. All the american money foating around the world hence toilet paper ends back up from where it started. At the federal reserve hence the biggest septic tank in the world. They also take all the used toilet paper make new money with it. Its majic

If the American people understood just how much wealth had been stolen from them by the Federal Reserve to be given to the rich and connected, there would be blood in the streets tomorrow. Just the productivity gains that have been siphoned off of manufacturing by inflation of the currency to be used for welfare and warfare. Model T cost 40 ounces of gold or 800$, new Ford F-150 with hot/cold seats, cruise, tilt, power everything, backup camera, is still less than 40 ounces of gold but costs 40k. On the original gold standard, the new F150 would be less than 800 bucks.

They (along with Congress and stupid lending laws) caused this crisis by holding rates way to low for way too long. Market rates would have stopped the bubble before it got big enough to destroy US.

Insanity is continuing to endure stupidity into oblivion.

If a Ford F150 costs $800, then the value of money would be much higher. Also, inflation would be lower. Inflation also effects wages, so yes, that F150 would cost $800, but your income would plummet and have the same relative cost as before.

You are mistaking “value” with purchasing power, AND the quantity of the currency as well. Have you ever asked yourself, why the price of gold is where it is today? Have you asked yourself, why it takes so much of our “fiat currency,” to buy an ounce of gold today?

…it’s because our currency has simply lost it’s purchasing power, that’s why.

It simply takes a lot more of our currency, to buy the same products/services, from just a few short years ago.

Money is simply a barometer to measure commerce by. Currency is the tool countries use, to move their economy.

For example, country #1, who has a strong currency, would use far less of their currency to buy gold, as opposed to a country such as ours, who would use far more of their currency, to buy the same product or service than country #1 does. In other words, I would rather have/spend/save one of our dollars back in 1913, than 90 of our dollars today. Even though I have more of our “currency,” today, it’s purchasing power has been depleted 96% since 1913. This unfortunately, would only give me a purchasing power of 4 cents today. Higher wages doesn’t drive the “value” of money. However, the “purchasing power” of our “currency,” DOES, affect our wages.

***so yes, that F150 would cost $800, but your income would plummet and have the same relative cost as before.

No, you’re income wouldn’t plummet, because it never went up to begin with.

Yes, you are correct in stating that inflation would be lower. However, it would remain low, as a result of the strong “purchasing power, ” that our currency would have. (less of it, in another words) This is not to be mistaken with deflation. Yes, deflation results, from having less of our currency in existence. However, it’s damning effects, are the inability to buy the goods/services at today’s prices. (meaning a lack of “purchasing power.)

…not to mention the inability of the investor, to collect all of their returns today.

I think you are placing a value on our currency, with the amount of it, that is currently in circulation.

For example, if the Ford F-150 was $800.00 back in 1913, and is still $800.00 today, one would not have to worry about falling wages, because the purchasing power would be the same today, as it was back in 1913. As stated before, I would rather have up to 96% less of our currency back in 1913, than 96% more of it today, simply because you would get “more bang for your buck” back then, as opposed to today.

Why are people today, so excited about their investments in gold oh let’s say, from only 20 short years ago?

Do you think they used/spent as much of our currency back then, as they did/would of today? Of course not.

And surely, they had a lot less of our currency back then, as opposed to today as well.

This can be proven, simply by the amount of return, that their gold investments have produced. Another good barometer of the purchasing power of our currency, is to exchange it with another currency.

If it takes more of our dollar, to purchase the same amount of purchasing power from another country’s currency, then our dollar is weak, or inflated.

Without the audit, transparency and oversight (if not outright dissolution of the federal reserve) there is no chance things will get better. This involves congress. What is it that is offered, threatened, or promised to members of congress that they will not do these things? And of course there is the Illuminati. It would seem to me that if there is such a thing, then the possibility of getting all of this achieved is slim to none. Is this why I feel that there is very little reason to hope for real change?

I have an end the fed shirt and I get crazy looks. I don’t think most people even have a clue as to what the fed is and how its the engine that gives the politicians and the banksters free rein to do what they do.

Absolutely the best article published on this website yet!

When you hear people saying to “End the Fed” this is what they mean!

Not only is this same group of parasites bankrupting this great nation but they- the same cabal of people have been bankrupting other nations and its citizens as well since 1694.

This article needs to go viral. Any politician not voting for HR 1207 needs tried for treason.

For a Further indept read see Mike Hewitt’s “America’s forgotten war against central banks” to get a further understanding of monetary policy.

Any nation that does not have or is against a central bank gets attacked- Iraq, Iran Afghanistan etc.

Once again fantastic article!

“The system we have now clearly is not working.”

From our perspective, that would appear true. Unfortunately, the system is working remarkably well. The problem is, the system was designed for the rich, not for “we the people”. Democrats and Republicans are puppets of the extreme minority of people that are super-rich. Stop being stupid Americans and voting within the “2-party system”. If everyone who was polled as “independent” voted for some independent candidates, we would surely have a way different government, and our officials would certainly feel more obligated to serve the interests of the majority of Americans. Unfortunately, most of the people who say they are independent are really just undecided between Dem or Rep. Pick someone else already people. Voting the same 2 parties hasn’t given us any positive change for decades.

I think all the world must read this. Explains a lot about why exists federal reserve/central banks in near all the countries in the world and where are we headed. (hopefully, you will not cut my comment this time . i see you are putting now charts, that its good . )

One of the best summaries of the problem I’ve ever seen. For more details, Brown’s Web of Debt can be consulted as well. A question not touched in this article is: How are the big bankers able to maintain this vicious system which enriches them and gives them near-total power, and impoverish and disempowers the rest of us? They obviously do this by corrupting the political process through lobbying and campaign donations. But even this is not enough, so they resort, routinely, to murder. That is why the Kennedy clan (JFK planned to circumvent the Federal Reserve) is half dead, and that is the probable solution to the so-called “crime of the century” of aviator’s Lindbergh’s son. That same aviator’s father, who bore the same name as the murdered child, was one of the Fed’s more powerful threats–defiance of the Fed, this murder showed, comes with a terrible price. And the list of murdered champions of democracy, courtesy of the Fed, goes on, and on, and on. So, let us be frank and make Michael’s list a complete dozen: The Federal Reserve should be abolished because it is a murderous institution.

You oversimplify on EVERY point

#1. If the government just printed its way out of its debts that would instantly cause hyperinflation. All confidence would be lost in the dollar, countries wouldn’t lend to us anymore, and the people wouldn’t trust the government to pay its bills ever. They’d then need to introduce a new currency backed by something, which would stabilize the dollar and one day cause another depression as the currency doesn’t increase with the growth in the economy. Fiat currency has actually had much better results then hard money, and governments have time and time again misused fiat currency to be irresponsible. If it were up to Obama or Bush, we’d have hit hyperinflation by now…..the federal reserve is the one checkpoint we’ve had to slightly keep bureaucrats in check.

#2 This is both true and untrue. In some cases they print more money, in some cases they transfer money to other debt (e.g selling bonds). The first case is called diluting the currency. The same thing happens with companies when they sell off more shares in second/third offerings to raise funds. This is generally done when it doesn’t make too much sense to borrow because they have bad credit. It always ticks off the shareholders because it devalues their current share holdings. Same thing happens when you print more money, you dilute the currency, causing inflation, causing devalueation of your current currency holdings.

#3 – I commented on your other post about how silly your argument is, read it there for the complete comment, but essentially there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

#4 – again you oversimplify. The last century has seen more prosperity and fewer runs on banks in history, in large part because of centralized banking. The federal reserve (and most economists) prefer a little inflation (e.g 2%) as it is easier to control inflation then deflation. Restricting the money supply has more predictable results then offering cheaper debt.

#5 – unfortunately you downplay politics when it plays a heavier hand then it should. The role of the federal reserve is to ensure bubbles don’t occur, therefore they don’t pop. However, because of politicians, the bubbles occur and the federal reserve is too afraid to be the party pooper to do what’s right. In essense, if they did what they were supposed to do, then we’d be in good shape…but instead they do what politicians want (usually).

#6. Their power to do so is the reason we haven’t had runs on banks. They screwed up during the depression, but there are so many other very bad factors like the Smoot-Hawley Tariff, almost all elements of the new deal, and yes, the constriction of the money supply. However, if they were unable to print money, then you’d have the same bank defaults just with no one to blame.

#7. Not fully government, not fully private either. Their chairman is appointed by the president, and most of the profits go to the US treasury.

#8. Transparency is debateable, and a tough subject. There should be more, but it isn’t simple. If everyone knew what the federal reserve knew, there would be less trust in the system. Less trust equates to more hoarding and less transfer of goods and services. So though there needs oversight, the public cannot be aware of everything or the economy would never move forward

#9 The federal reserve bank of NY has also always been the most stable, and it is by far the largest and has the largest gold reserve in the world.

#10. Fractional reserve isn’t a con, it’s quite simple actually, and has greatly helped out our economy. We’d still be grinding grain and milking our own cows if it weren’t for banking. I may actually agree that there is no real need for reserve requirements..reserves only exist to mitigate against fear. If the people are trusting and don’t run on the bank then the reserves are unnecessary, and more money can flow into the system. Though, I don’t know that I agree that they’ve come up with the right framework just yet, I think in time we may be able to progress to this, but only after several generations of stability.

#11. I agree there should be some sort of auditing watchdog. But the information that it takes out would have to be heavily detacted to be made public. Then you get into the whole ‘who watches the watchers’ debate…..yay, another oversight committee…

Do your history, America wasn’t doing just fine without them. They survived on bailouts from banks (JP Morgan did it on 2 occasions). When the guy died…who else was going to bail out the greedy Amercian government? Thus the Federal Reserve was established.

Our financial system may seem unstable to you, but it is still more stable then it historically ever has been.

Of course there’s room for improvement, but you aren’t suggesting improvement, you’re suggesting a downgrade. Your suggestions are simple minded, not founded on anything. They are ideological, not practical.

Thank you! I’ve been looking around trying to figure out why the federal reserve is a bad thing everywhere and none of the points seem very well thought-out… But when reading the responses to this article everyone thinks it’s brilliantly put and well-worded, so I had no idea what was going on. I suppose just a “preaching to the choir” effect, but for someone who’s trying to find real information and KNOWS that creating more money out of thin air is idiotic, there’s very little rational reasons given why it should be disbanded.

This entire article is total crap. Whoever wrote this is uneducated on the subject, ignorant, and completely bias. Same with every response except this one who’s counter arguments are spot on every point the original article tried to make. The fed needs to be independent of the government. One deals with monetary policy, the other fiscal. I hope people who read this article do more unbiased research for themselves!

Failure to grasp simple grammatical concepts (not understanding the difference between “then” and “than”, as well as the proper spelling of “redacted”): your argument is invalid.

Great article. The average american’s ignorance on this topic is killing us. We currently owe 5 trillion to the federal reserve and another 2-3 trillion to other private banks. So around 75% of your total debt is owed to banks. But yet the media wants to act as if China is our biggest debt holder, at 800 billion.

The fractional reserve banking is also a big part of the problem. Maybe you can cover that in more detail as well?

I have been talking until I am blue in the face to my friends and family and on my social networks that it is well past time to abolish the Federal Reserve.

The only problem with that is that every true American patriot who has tried before has been killed.

These money-mad, power-hungry trolls are doing a demonic work in this country and today they have control of everything we see, hear, read, and eat.

I suggest that you learn from this post and do a little research.

Start with “The Creature From Jekyll Island” by G. Edward Griffin.

Here is a video Mr. Griffin made shortly after the release of his book. It is EXCELLENT!

I’ve just read this great paper on hyperinflation that is about to hit the US, it is REALLY worth the read (especially the beginning and ending):

Basically, there is almost no escaping it. Key factors to this situation (along with the creation of the Federal Reserve), is Roosevelt’s decision to abandon the gold standard for the money in 1933, as an attempt to bring the country out of the Great Depression. Coupled to that, you have Nixon completely cutting the last ties between gold and US dollars in 1971 (thus creating a fiat dollar), AND Allan Greenspan’s method of keeping steady inflation by making loans and credit the “normal” way of doing things these days. Inflation is not completely natural, and for that to happen and allow the country to grow, you need to let people borrow…

So what can people do about it? First, put your money into offshore accounts, like Canadian, Switzerland or Australian currency.

Stack on Gold and Silver, and pack on the canned food to sustain your family for at least for 6 months. Chance are the only proper way to function until a new money standard is set in place will be a barter system to trade in goods and services.

It is worth taking a look at what happened to other countries who went through hyperinflation, like post World War I Germany, Hungary and Zimbabwe (still dealing with this problem). Chances are daily inflation will be so crazy you won’t be able to buy anything with your money anymore. Look at this:

“The cumulative devaluation of the Zimbabwe dollar was such that a stack of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (26 zeros) two dollar bills (if they were printed) in the peak hyperinflation would have be needed to equal in value what a single original Zimbabwe two-dollar bill of 1978 had been worth.”

“As to the potential rapidity of price change, consider some anecdotal evidence. One story out of Weimar Germany involved buying an expensive bottle of wine for dinner. The empty bottle was worth more as scrap glass the next morning than it had been worth as a full bottle of wine the night before. Anther story involved negotiating the price and paying for a meal, before sitting down, as the price of the meal would be higher by the time it was finished.”

“If you take a few minutes to stop and think about it, an America where there is no Federal Reserve, no personal income tax and no IRS is not that hard to imagine.

If the U.S. government functioned just fine without all of them at one time, then why couldn’t the U.S. government function just fine without all of them now?”

That is the question every American needs to ask. And, as stated, the dollar has lost 96% of it’s value, since the Fed Reserve was formed, and we went from gold backed dollars to whatever backs them now.

What is so bad, that the Fed. Reserve cannot stand an audit?

Good article thanks sir. Until you hear our politicians openly talk about ending the practice of borrowing money into existence and getting rid of the Fed then all the other talk of economic recovery is smoke n mirrors. Of course the guys controlling money make sure congress is paid off and money is pumped into sports and entertainment to distract the masses. We wont wake up until the whole system has crashed out and even then some will still focus on the scapegoats instead of the real enemies

Are you saying that govt created disco?! I knew something was wrong. Now I now. Thank you, sir!

The reason for the reasons: The people behind the Federal Reserve. They are evil and if they can not get their way through bribery (nothing to them since they can fabricate money) or blackmail, they have already and will kill anyone getting in their way and enjoy doing the killing. They destroy because it is their religion involves destruction. They can and should be run out of our country even though there will be painful consequences. They will retaliate. They will remain powerful. If we do not fight them, the day we are too ashamed to be alive will soon be here.

According to the inflation chart in reason #4 it looks like the year 1971 was exactly when inflation went nuts. Let’s get back to gold and silver and the Constitution. That system, contrary to the belief that there is not enough gold and silver works pretty well and economic growth occurs at a sustainable rate. The same amount of expansion and wealth may not be created at the same rate of speed as it was with 100% fiat money but what we created was not wealth, it was debt and what was created is being transfered into the hands of the ones who designed the system to do just that. I would call that slavery by deception. It would have to take some kind of evil minds to be cunning enough to come up with a plan like that. Let’s come down hard on these people who must hate us to do something like this. Did anyone start yet? Or are you just going to sit there hoping. Voting is not going to do the job.

You have said “and yet” three times in this article. This is bad English. Great article and I totally agree with you about the Federal Reserve. However, could you please choose a coordinating conjunction (either and or yet) next time? All three of those sentences would flow so much nicer if you would just drop the “and.” All you need is “yet.”

Point 1: The bank was created to enslave the government with debt

The Federal Reserve is part of the government. While it is considered an independent bank, that is because it is not part of the executive branch of the government and therefore not subject to presidential control, as the FDA is. It does, however, have presidentially appointed board members.

The best comparison would be the United States Postal Service. While both are technically independent organizations they are controlled by congress. Like other independent agencies whose powers are technically congress’s powers (but simply delegated) they are subject to changes at the whim of the legislature.

By the arguments presented here, the Federal Reserve servers no purpose except to make us lose money. Doesn’t that seem a bit odd? I will get into why this appears to be the case in a bit.

Point 2: The Federal Reserve makes money out of thin air.

This is somewhat funny because one of the examples for point 1 being valid was that they cannot make money out of thin air. That said, it is a valid point. One might argue that the ability to create money is important in order to maintain liquidity in the market, but it is a double-edged sword.

Point 3: Large banks are using low-interest loans from the federal bank in order to invest in long-term loans FOR the federal bank making a profit.

One of the more significant problems with the system but exaggerated here. There is a 10-year lag between their investment and their returns. This does weird things to the economy that are not exactly fundamentally good or bad. I don’t have time to post charts on this, but I can agree this is generally a problem.

Point 4: The Federal Reserve devalues our currency.

Yes, it does that. There are many reasons we might want inflation, the largest argument is that it encourages spending.

Point 5: The Federal Reserve manipulates the economy by controlling interest rates.

Yes, it does that too. That is the main way in which it devalues the currency and is one of the largest purposes of the reserve.

Point 6: The Federal Reserve controls the monetary supply

This is really the same thing as points 2, 4, and 5

Point 7: The Federal Reserve is not part of the US Government

For better or worse it is. This is really the same thing as point 1. It is subject to congressional control and has its board members appointed by the president.

Point 8: The Federal Reserve has grown too powerful

It is as powerful as congress lets it be.

The remaining points are more of the same. While a few of the points (3 and 8) are valid, there is unfortunately little focus on the actual issues the reserve causes.

Hopefully the people will wake up one day and realize we dont need the fed or this giant government. Until then I think its going to be real ugly. Heres another interesting site with good articles if any one is interested. http://vinceseconomicblog.wordpress.com

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

banking institutions are more dangerous to

our liberties than standing armies.

If the American people ever allow

private banks to control the issue of their

currency, first by inflation, then by

deflation, the banks and corporations that will

grow up around the banks will deprive the people

of all property – until their children

wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers

I blame the free market. After all, capitialism is at fault.

Take a walk on socialist sidewalks, past socialist schools and socialist charity agencies and ponder the meaning of your words.

Vote out all incumbents except Ron Paul, too.

Thanks for this article. I read it on Silver Bear Cafe and it is very well written and explain in simple terms what the FED is. Articles like this have to get out in the main stream. people need to wake up. The FED must be eliminated I agree. That simple.

Until people stop being afraid of the government and large businesses the federal reserve will continue to steal from the middle class. We need to some how get the public to vote to close the federal reserve. To me the federal reserve is a major crime against the middle class.

We should clean house in the November elections and get rid of all the present elected officials and keep doing this until we get people in there who work for the people and not the banks and large businesses who fill their pockets.

Good story, yes the Federal Reserve is a huge problem, but no mention of what some like Jim Willie and Eric Sprott have recently noted. Any truth to their Fed/Treasury revelations ?

Income tax was created about the time the Fed came into existence. The fed can’t just print off more money because of hyperinflation, so the key is to tax Americans work, sometimes up to 50%. This has always been so. When the pyramids were built, they were built by slaves. Same thing today, only we are the slaves. It’s not all about the money, it’s about having someone work their balls off and give half their check to government…The Central Bank and Fed.

But what’s coming is even worse. When Monsanto completely contaminates the food supply with terminator seed technology, and you can’t grow your own food, we as people are threw.

Even in America the people live in a secretive master-slave arrangement because inwardly, in our psyche, we secretly (unconsciously) are passive to our inner critic or superego. This inner master-slave dynamic or conflict, which humankind has yet to resolve, invariably finds its mirror-image (or is acted out) in our personal, social and political dynamics. Hence, among other things, we become slaves to debt, which is created and held by the elite, our masters. Our world is fashioned by our consciousness. Political and economic reform is limited by our lack of inner freedom and psychological astuteness.

In my consciousness, your world is absurd.

What are we waiting for? Let’s bypass the federal reserve and issue our own currency, debt-free and outlaw govt borrowing along with fractional reserve lending.

Has any economy used politicians as money?

Until we have a financial system that operates on a dollar earned can be a dollar spent premise, the economic situation for most americans is only going to get worse. There is simply too much spending and debt. Some type of massive debt forgiveness program should be put into place.

I think that is about the best description of the Federal Reserve as I’ve ever heard.

If a state government would print all the money it needs, it should print it in exchange of products made by workers, i.e. to pay railroads construction, or horrible hyperinflation would result after fiat-money. But, if a government would print all the money it needs inside a capitalistic production system (a system where private entrepreneurs pocket the surplus value extracted from the workers, selling products without paying the entire corresponding salary to workers), a destructive competition would result in regard to private enterprises; normally, state capitalism doesn’t make surplus value/capital accumulation, and USSR economy indeed failed

because of impossibility to efficiently compete with free market-economy system. In Italy, after WWII, to boost the starting

capitalistic system, the state successfully made exactly the opposite than print the money to pay state workers: the state payed

private entrepreneurs to dig huge holes without a real purpose, so getting into debt but – more important – starting the private

capital accumulation via massive surplus value exploitation. In U.S., FDR new deal was a success only if you look at it as a massive

method to exploit the workforce and and only in a war-economy perspective, ruled by powerful private businesses. Obviously, this method of bringing into debt the government to boost free market works only for limited time periods and only for historically expanding/war-winning economies, see China today; in a long-term, a free-market economy (which absolutely needs to never-ending expand the capital extracted from the proletarian workforce) incurs in an unavoidable fall of the profit rate due to market competition and automation, then crisis and wars usually follow.

So, in general, free money printing by government works only if the capitalistic, surplus-value system (workers exploitation) is wiped off, and in this case the economic system would instantly carry out the communist production system foreseen by Marx and Engels, attempted by Lenin and buried by Stalin. It would be the perfect solution: money could be discarded because it will transform in simple tickets proving a worker’ work-hours and exchangeable with other products. no more crisis, no more destructive competition, no more proletarian work exploitation, no more wars, only scientific work allocation depending on world people needs, centrally planned. We could easily cultivate the deserts, bring industries in outer space, cure most of illnesses.Instead, if you want the government prints freely its “work-tickets” and, at the same time, maintain the present money-based economic system, you would crash against the same

unsolvable problems of the capitalistic production system, the absolute need to indefinitely increase the capital via workers’ surplus-value exploitation, a situation worsened in this case because you would have pumped a highly inefficient state-capitalism in the system. IMHO, inside a capitalistic production system, a private bank ruling the money printing is more desirable because it put some brake

on inflation; a gold system would also be preferable, but the system would return to XIX century-like highly frequent crisis and wars, because that system cannot support the enormous capital and workforce expansion required by our XXI century production system. So, the only answer is a world leninist revolution wiping out bourgeois, banksters, money, free market and state-capitalism, where workers take the power and rule a new communist production system suitable to the current huge world workforce and automated industries, that capitalism is by now unable to control. The alternative is only a global war, as Marx, Schumpeter and Kondratieff already taught to us.

> a capitalistic production system (a system where private entrepreneurs pocket the surplus value extracted from the workers

But without private entrepreneurs, the workers will get stoned and drunk in seedy bars, losing all that surplus value in games of chance.

And all of that said — a privatized Fed — you prefer turning it over to corrupt politicians who are on the payroll of corporations?

The deal is almost done – the transfer of wealth will happen – but not quite how people imagine. The money men will make their (final) play for full spectrum dominance, but as a resulkt of this, they will preciptiate the emergence of the real wealth – the treasures of heaven – for when they have all the money and the control, then will people seek the real wealth that can even find gold in as fishes mouth and turn water into wine.

Fantastic breakdown – and its amazing how many people are absolutely CLUELESS about what the FED is all about.

Which then leads us into the Federal Income Tax Act of 1&16…

If the dollar collapses what happens to the Federal Reserve System? Is there anything we, the people, can do to cause the Fed to go into Bankruptcy? Maybe a tax revolt? Does anyone have any ideas?

The inability to use very simple logic is our problem, not being able to see the forest for the trees.

The solution and the legal permission to do what the people can do as you wonder, is already stated in article 1, section 10 of the U.S. Constitution, in the 1st and last sentences. We have been invaded from a foreign entity by their agents within our country.

Ron Paul and Sarah Palin should run together for President and Vice President (in either order).

Interesting article, except for all the factual errors. You can’t even interpret your own graph correctly. Don’t be a Glenn Beck, you should actually at least TRY to get it right. Clearly there was something in the late 60s that caused the dollar to start losing its value, I wonder what that could have been? Perhaps going off the gold standard? Ya think? NOT the creation of the FED. I didn’t even read any further than this. What shoddy journalism.

HAHAHA, Tax revolt? I might remind you that putting DOWN a tax revolt was the only time a sitting president led troops into battle. George Washington himself went and put down the Whiskey Rebellion, so don’t give me any of that Founding Fathers **** either.

1- the Federal Reserve maintains stability and has maintained stability in the last 100 years.

2- the cost of this stability is the fixation of an expiration date of the US financial system.

3- If the Fed disappears today, tomorrow you are looking at an empty plate for the next ten years or more.

4- this scenario in 3 is something that will happen in the future.

5- With money there is nothing real that you can do.

This stability you mention. Is it from a lot of drugs?

America is ruled by the Freemason Rothschilds, who own and control all the banks – the Antichrist.

The ‘financial crisis’ occurred as the result of the US Federal Reserve creating fake gold bars out of titanium blocks covered in a thin layer of real gold. Titanium weighs the same as gold and the bars were valued as pure gold. The mints have to have a reserve of gold to the same value of money that is printed out and circulated into economies. America has a massive deficit now, because the Chinese drilled into the gold bars used to trade money between countries, and discovered the fake bars. THAT is what set off the domino effect around the world after each country discovered that they held fake gold bars in their Reserve Bank vaults that had paid for trade debts and credits. All caused by the US Federal Reserve Bank.

I know this is a really old article, but just in case anyone reading believes the above, you should know that gold weighs 4 times as much as titanium.

Connect the dots: the FED relies on deficits to make money. Govt deficit=FED assets on their balance sheet. No government deficit would be the death of the FED. Does the FED support big government spending? You betcha! People like to say we owe China; actually we “owe” the FED more. The only difference is that China actually supplied us with something (OK, cheap junk, but still something) while the FED supplied us with…?

The answer is simple. Render their money useless and they will lose all power. Stop using Federal Reserve Notes. Drive to DC and tell them their Satanic games are through.

Didn’t david Rockefeller marry President Nixons daughter

I saw a report of how much gold China has in comparison to the United States. We only have 160 billion vs 10 times that China has. I’m afraid that since we went off the gold standard, they have funneled off that wealth as well.

Do the math. Figure the cost of inflation already from when we we on the gold standard vs. now up over 1000% ?

Now remember back way back to your history books. We started out as individual states right? Well there has to be a bail out clause? Our Fore fathers had to have left something in the fine print. If we don’t wish to participate, who says that we can’t all secede from the union and run our states separately? Then vote to have useless parts of the government (ie the federal reserve, the pentagon, the food and drug administration (which should really be separated food and then drug, their a nightmare too ) dismantled by a majority vote of the states. I think all representatives need to reside in their states anyway and not vote so much on useless bilge that doesn’t represent or benefit their state. Thus they wouldn’t get caught up so much with the power of it all if it was just their state and less government.

The nstional debt is approx $14trillion and climing.From George washington untill 3 years ago,the national debt increased to $9 trillion,an increase of $3 trillion or 30%.Incredible.At the current rate of government expenditures, it will rise to $20 billion in a few short years.The government must stop spending and the international and national banking elites must remove themselves from controling the fed some case “Charlie”

The Monetary and Financial Security Act is the solution. Itwaiting in Congress waiting to be introduced when it has half a chance in passing. Go to http://www.monetary.org and read it for yourself.

1. I think that you’re correct in saying that if this power was given to the Federal Government, that we would have far more likelihood to simply hyperinflate away our deficits. However, this argument completely misses the fact that the Constitution requires a different money system. We are currently playing word games with the Constitution when we say that it isn’t the government (because the FED is private) that is printing the money, so it’s okay. A Constitutional currency is gold and or silver. All that government is allowed to do is to regulate it’s value and stamp the coins; in other words, they may decide how many ounces of gold or silver should be in a given coin.

2. Saying that the same thing happens when companies dilute their shares does not justify the practice. In actuality, there is a difference. When shares are diluted, all holders benefit (or suffer) at the same time, with inflation, the first spenders (the government) get the full value of the money but those who are further removed receive less value per dollar. Again, the Constitution says that Counterfeiting is a serious crime, on a par with treason, actually punishable by death, although this is pooh-poohed today. Can you really argue that there is an effective difference between the counterfeiter and the Fed? Both inject money into the system, which robs everyone of value, both actions accrue benefits to individuals, rather than all people equally.

The destruction caused by a fiat regime is real and we will certainly see much more of that in the not too distant future. It’s destruction is not limited to transferring the wealth of ordinary people to powerful elites, but in the damage that it has caused to our sovereignty and more subtle damage to the country such as it’s encouragement of government corruption, foreign policy and the destruction of savings. All of these points are controversial, but I believe arguably have merit.

3. There is nothing illegal about this, but that is not the same as saying that there is nothing morally wrong with encouraging well connected banks and financial institutions, all of which represent the most sophisticated financial acumen in the country, to profit at the expense of the average American and then borrow from our grandchildren to allow them to stay in business and pay their bloated bonuses. When crooks are writing the laws and enforcing the regulations then it is not surprising that it is legal, but it clearly is immoral. All of the institutions involved in the crisis deserved to go out of business. That is capitalism. But they are not capitalists.

4. Greater prosperity? Fewer runs on banks? Who is oversimplifying? That wasn’t even the subject of the point. The point was simply that the Fed has devalued the currency. That is a fact. Failing to address that fact, you brought in other observations. But one of the Fed’s own stated goals is to stabilize the currency. If by “stabilize the currency” they meant to “steadily devalue” it, then they should have said so. Of course most economists agree. 99% of economists are Keynesians or a monetarist subgroup, both of which think that inflation is a wonderful thing. What you are arguing is that, while it is clear that the author is correct in saying that the currency has been devalued by over 95%, you think that this has had a beneficial effect on our standard of living and on balance it has been a good thing. You oversimplify when you say that the 20th century has had the most prosperity and least runs on banks. It can just as easily be argued that bad banks going out of business are actually a healthy thing for the economy as a whole. The damage caused by the deepest and longest recession in history (so far) seems insignificant in your analysis. While I agree that Roosevelt and Hoover deserve much of the blame, it could not have happened without the Fed. The Fed set up the bubble, the Fed helped pop the bubble, the Fed encouraged and allowed government to deficit spend during the Depression which gave Roosevelt the rope to hang the country. almost every other country in the world emerged from the depression in less than two years. The Depression lasted 10 and the Fed’s policies encouraged it.

5. I don’t disagree with your contention that politics deserves a raspberry. But to say that the Feds role “is to ensure bubbles don’t occur” is laughable. So, easy money didn’t contribute to the dot com bubble, or to the housing bubble? You’ll have to pick and choose your economists pretty carefully to be able to find backing for that contention. I think it is just as likely that most politicians take their marching orders from the Fed than they push the Fed into acting the way they want. Most of the Cabinet and much of Congress are tied closely to the banking lobby. Can you find many meaningful examples of Congress or the Executive opposing those lobbies? Sure, there’s an occasional “banking regulation” bill that comes through, but most of those are written by the banking industry to further solidify their grip on power at the expense of competition. The current bill is no exception. Your contention that “if they did what they were supposed to do, then we’d be in good shape” is simply propaganda from the Feds fan club.

6. I disagree that this power is what prevents runs on banks. I think the author is correct when he says that this power contributes to booms and busts. The runs on banks thing is a separate issue. That is chiefly handled today by consolidation of banks, by Congress allowing banks to ignore their true balance sheets and by not requiring any reserve requirements. Not mentioned is the fact that essentially large banks are given free money (at taxpayer expense) to park the money with the Fed instead of loaning it out. Naturally they cry crocodile tears and wring their hands about the lack of loans being made. The Fed is simply a banking cartel, which is setup to allow banks to cooperate with government to discourage competition. It is a mutually beneficial arrangement, but it does not benefit the American people. When you say that it does, I think you neglect many valuable features that hard money systems bring to the table, but that requires a much longer discussion.

7. You are correct. But it is far more private than it is public. The current debate about an audit merely underscores that. We do not even have a full list of the owners of the Fed. Originally it was kept secret. We know that member banks are owners, but there are other owners as well, many of whom are likely to be foreign. So “our” central bank may be largely in the hands of foreigners. Thus, we can be confident that the Fed always acts in the interest of the US…NOT!

8. You are again right. If everyone knew what the Fed knew, there would be less trust in the system. Ponzi schemes are like that. Your argument that knowing what the Fed knows would result in hoarding and prevent the economy from moving forward is total bullshit. Of course there would be hoarding of hard assets, because with a Ponzi scheme, the thing is going to fail eventually. Only an idiot wouldn’t want to protect themselves. But most people deal with their local banks. No individuals deal with the Fed, and every one of those banks is required to disclose their books. You don’t see people freezing up and refusing to go outside because of it. But when this Fiat mess comes falling down, then you’ll see people afraid to move; and history is definitely on my side here.

9. You are probably right here. The system was set up to consolidate power to the New York branch, even though sold to America as being decentralized (just another little white lie). I’m not sure about the gold reserve. My understanding is that the gold belongs to the people. It should be in Fort Knox as an asset of the people. There is really no reason that I can think of that the Fed should have any gold of it’s own. Our currency is not tied to gold. It is a fact that the Fed manipulates the gold market to fool people into thinking that the currency is more stable than it really is, but I don’t know why the Fed would have much gold unless it’s a legacy from prior to 1971, when we would have to pay foreigners gold, but weren’t allowed to own it ourselves.

10. I disagree here. I think it is basically dishonest. Certainly it’s historical roots are based in deception and I don’t think that there is really anything different today. The fact that it is well known, legal and standard practice for the industry notwithstanding. If it’s that good for us, why not let anyone do it? As long as no one recognizes a Ponzi scheme as such, and there are no runs on the bank, there will never be a problem. But, you neglect the misallocation of resources. You neglect moral hazard. True, these things are difficult to exactly quantify, but when you step back and look at a country that is the largest debtor in the world, it’s pretty clear that we have lost our way. In your utopian world, you seem to think that someday mankind will reach the point where they blindly accept whatever they are told at face value. There is no evidence that any society will ever achieve that sort of trusting belief, nor any reason to believe that it would be in their best interest to do so. True, it is in the best interests of the banks and the Fed and their owners, but that is different. It is a con to say that were it not for fractional reserve banking, we’d all be milling grain. Hard money systems existed for thousands of years, with much greater stability than fractional systems allow. The system of credit that you forget, which is far superior to the fractional reserve system is the “Real Bills” system as expounded by Adam Smith. Under this system, there is enough money for business to operate and less misallocation of resources.

11. Again, I think your argument against transparency is bullshit. JP Morgan and his friends were powerful enough and strongly suspected in causiong the panic of 1907 and grandly offered to solve it. It was this crisis which was used as the rationale for the Fed’s creation. JP Morgan had a representative on the secret committee which created the Feds charter and was instrumental in its design. Upon his demise, it was discovered that his real power came from English banking interests for whom he was their front man. While I won’t say that the government wasn’t greedy in 1913, it is nothing compared to the greediness which government has achieved today, largely with the encouragement of the Fed, which has tempted Congressmen with easy money since 1914.

I think you’re right again that the author’s ideas, as well as mine, are probably going to be impossible to put into practice until the current regime utterly fails. I suspect that we won’t have long to wait in that regard. It is my hope that we return to a hard money system when that occurs. It is my contention that the instability in the money system can be traced to fractional reserve banking and reaches its zenith with the Fed cartel in collusion with government. Together, these create the boom/bust cycles of recession and depression, they transfer vast sums of wealth to a hidden elite, they serve to destroy our sovereignty and systematically seek to enslave billions both at home and around the world in the chains of debt.

It is my understanding that Congress, if it so chose, can take the charter away from the Federal Reserve and return to having the United States Treasury print our money. We need to force them to do so. My hope is that this is one of the topics being discussed at the “Occupy Wall street” movements. I for one intend to go down there and see that it is.

I do have a question for you concerning “Executive Order 11110”, initiated by JFK. I have heard arguments on both sides of this issue and would like your opinion concerning whether or not this order returned Constitutional power to create and issue currency-money – without going through the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank. I have heard (from different sources) that this order pumped between 4 and 5 billion U.S. notes into circulation that were backed by silver. Can you shed any light on this subject? Thanks for your time.

The Fed does not print our money

@ Bill Yes the Federal Reserve does print our money look at any paper money you have. It says Federal Reserve Note right at the top of it. Our Gov. trades Bonds for a different colored paper called money. Oh and its all made up money made out of thin air and for some reason people think we can get out of debt by taking on more debt. HA its laughable, we need to abolish the Federal Reserve President Jackson warned us of this over 150 years ago when he shut down the central bank that preceded the Federal Reserve.

Regarding #1: wouldn’t the US just creating money whenever it needed to lead to massive inflation?

Take an Econ 101 course! You have no idea what you are talking about and your logic is flawed!

“I know better”, the banksters are the ones who created the economic education system. Take a peek at this video.

Everyone should watch

Or read the book “Creature of Jeckyll Island”

Spencer. Thanks for you reasonable comments.

Here is a website that explains the Federal Reserve System without the hype.

I think the Federal Reserve System is the best system when compared to the systems of the past.

I am sure it can be improved and it has improved. Computer models have helped in the management. The system that does need an overhaul is the political system and the way we elect representatives.

People say that they create money out of thin air. That is true, but that is the beauty of the system. The money supply can be expanded or contracted as needed. When more money is needed in the system due to people needs or business expansion they create more but you have to borrow the money and then pay it back.

The system does require proper management and that is one reason they tried to keep it out of the politicians direct control.

Money is for the use in commerce. You might think of it as an IOU. In a sophisticated economy the personal IOU would be difficult to manage.

Money is not a good vehicle to store wealth because the present system has a built in inflation rate of about 2 to 3 percent. Wealth storage should use other means such as gold, silver, stocks, bonds, real estate, art, etc. Again this requires smart management of the wealth.

The economy needs a zillion dollars.

I hope that an American hero, similar to Andrew Jackson or Abe Lincoln will emerge and commit the U.S. government to a plan to take back control of the economy. I’m a Canadian, but I love the principles that built America. They are principles of democracy, fairness, and HONEST opportunity. The Federal Reserve violates those principles. It can bring tears to one’s eye to think about how the dreams of our forefathers had have not been realized. I would like to point out, however, that there’s an easy way and a hard way for the people running the federal reserve to change their ways. The easy way is diplomatic, the hard way is…well…not diplomatic.

Do you realize that while Abe Lincoln was president he committed seigniorage, where he just printed off massive amounts of money to finance the civil war causing massive inflation?

Lets pump the brakes before saying he could save our economy today.

Read a book, preferably an economics one.

He had issues, but I think Matt was referring mainly to his character, which I wouldn’t doubt. He thought he was doing right, and took action. We need a president who will take action. (In this case, the right action)

Lincoln pointed us to federal banking, to assuage the greed of the bankers.

Or someone like JFK who actually was GOING TO get rid of the federal reserve. You names two old foggies not relevant in todays time. Oh and another JFK will never happen, they killed him.

Just look at #4, you talk about the purchasing power of a dollar and how it has gone down so much in a generation, and yet you do not mention how wages have in creased as well? C’mon, any high school kid who took has taken a basic economics class should know better then to cite that as a reason the fed is bad. 2-4% Inflation per year is not a bad thing for our economy.

It’s not just total wealth, but also distribution. When new money is introduced, it goes to the banks. It doesn’t go into the hands of the poor or middle class. It is the direct cause of the massive wealth inequality in this country. Not free trade or free markets like some think.

What is inflation?

Its not like goods and services are actually worth more every year…

Its simply that our money is worth less and is being devalued because they are printing too much…in turn goods cost more/costs rise…

Not everything the Fed does is bad. Otherwise it wouldn’t exist.

But do you really think its a good idea to have a Private Agency like that, with so much power and influence, to not be held accountable to the American people?

Reply to “This article is Wrong”

Go down to your local bank and purchase a CD with your hard earned money. Now how much interest are you going to get? My guess is 1% or less. Now why is that? The reason for that is this. The Fed has to drive down the interest rates. Why do they have to drive down the interest rates? Because of our debt. We owe so much money that they can not afford to let the interest rates climb. They want to pay down the dept with cheap money. With the mountain of debt that we now hold can you even start to imagine what would happen if interest rates climbed to 15% like in the Carter years? Make no mistake the Fed is a pure crock. Now lets consider this. I am 67 years old. I get a small retirement check each month. There are no provisions in my retirement for inflation or the devaluation of the dollar. I get what I get and that is it period. So the Fed holds the interest rates at near zero, I can’t make any money that way. They print money and devalue the dollar, that is not good when you are on a fixed income. Then if we have inflation, and yes we do have inflation no matter what anyone tells you, then I loose again. Now can you get my point?

I bet this shot your day. When you retire son the company you retire from could care less when it comes to keeping you even. Tell you what, if the government will just give me .02% I will jerk all the money they need our of thin air and loan it to them. I just bet that even you would like a sweetheart of a deal like that. Look at the savings they would have. No the Fed was set up for the rich and it is just that simple. I have read “Creature from Jekyll Island”.

11 Reasons Why The Federal Reserve Is Bad.

I agree completely with theeconomiccollapse for one reason itsfraud.

What is considered good business by the minority elite wealthy, is just fraud, deception, corruption and scams to steal everyone´´s money.

The public need to respond to this fraud by showing articles like the above to their friends, and commenting on sites like this.

Regards Gordan Finch

Well, I don’t agree with the first part of reason one for one reason: even if the fed didn’t exist, the government could not pay off it’s debts by creating money. You cannot create assets from nothing. In fact, money is just a representation of assets. To be in debt you have to give something that is worth something. Money created from air is not assets created from air.

The Fed does in fact literally create money through the fractional reserve banking system. This is fiat money we are talking about, not commodity backed money such as the US paper money prior to Nixon’s presidency. Now, our currency is backed by nothing, which means it can be created out of nothing. This is how the Fed exercises its duty to expand the money supply.

N.D. Stone is correct. Google “Fiat Money”… you will be shocked!! Thank you N.D.

If the US barrows from it self, It is putting up the USA as Collateral. If you think the USA is a good risk , then you will allow them to barrow. As they are borrowing from you. You think the future for the USA is good, you will have nothing to worry about, as your dollars are strong and the rest of the world thinks the same. If you think it is going to collapse and the borrowing is out of hand like it was at the end of WW11 in Germany, then your dollar not worth the paper it is written on. A strong country that has policies that keep it strong, has nothing to worry about. However a country that is controlled by a Bank needs to worry.

Econ 101 as I see it

Can this system be dismantled?

Too many people believe that the Federal Reserve System is designed to protect the American people from just this kind of economic crisis never dreaming that it is sucking up their hard earned wealth by wealthy paranahs all over the world. Why is it not public knowledge?

The last man who tried ended up dead with 2 bullets to the head. Nobody has dared try again out of fear. The Unless we all sand up against the Fed, it will always be in control.

Here is another little known FACT. 100% of the federal income tax taken out of our paychecks goes to paying the off interest on the money printed by the federal reserve. There is a way to dismantle the reserve. Join the OCCUPY movement. We are getting stronger by the day. It won’t happen overnight, but we are beginning to make a difference. Mark Wallace is right. We all need to make a stand together! So join us and let’s make this a reality.

********** the federal reserve

Good write up. I knew these things and have been explaining them to glassy-eyed folks for years. There is supposed to be an out for getting the Fed off our backs. Supposedly, if we pay them $1M in gold, we can buy it all back (You can’t buy your way out of debt with borrowed money anymore than you can use your Visa card to pay your Visa bill). Congress isn’t about to do that, though, because with the Fed in play Congress can borrow infinite amounts of “money” without having to get our approval or having that in-house accountability. This is flagrantly in spite of a Supreme Court ruling that said Congress may not abdicate its responsibilities to others.

Funny thing, though, I’ve always considered them to be surprisingly open about their fraud. Once it got rolling, if you asked them, they’d talk about it quite freely since there was pretty much nothing to do about it. When the Fed got started, it was with $148M. Two decades later, the USA was bankrupt and the Fed was rolling in billions. Yes, Congressman McFadden died along the way, having ranted and railed his warnings against the Fed and it took a few attempts, but they finally got him. Congress called for an explanation for what had happened to our money and our farmers (which the Fed was supposed to protect) and the head of the board came in and explained it to them. When they went glassy-eyed, he explained it again. In the end, they made a deal and so the Fed loans us the “money” that we print and every asset in the country is theirs/collateral.

It’s seems simple enough. I don’t know why so many people are just waking up to it. I don’t have a million in gold, but if you want to fight them just tell us where to show up. You can’t pay a debt with borrowed money, but you can sure throw off an oppressor with their own guns and ammo. And they can certainly never own your Free spirit. As long as you want to resist them…

JFK was going to do away with the federal reserves and look what happened to him and all of his brothers who were going to run for president. They’d blow us up and hop off to one of their Islands before they would allow someone to pay it off.

First and most importantly, the so called Fed Reserve is not part of our Government. It is a cabal of private Bankers intent on destroying and owning us as slaves for their New World Order. one of them said, “Give me control of a Nations money and I care not who makes their Laws.” We can issue our own legal money and get rid of this Criminal parasite. Their 100 year charter is up in 2013. Lets get rid of the Fed, then and only then do stand a chance to survive and proper. Only “We The People” can do this!

We need to make the Federal Reserve a Cabinet Agency…it can’t be both private and public…and completely unnaccountable

If you had a savings account, would you prefer it be backed by FDIC insurance or gold?

In 1890 gold was $18.94 a troy ounce. In 1970 it was $36.00 an ounce. And Today, (2012) it is over $1777 a troy ounce.

Did you know that Utah has passed a bill to accept gold and silver coins as legal tender? Utah legislators want to see the dollar regain its former glory, back to the days when one could literally bank on it being “as good as gold.”

To make that point, they’ve turned it around, and made gold as good as cash. Utah became the first state in the country this month to legalize gold and silver coins as currency. The law also will exempt the sale of the coins from state capital tax gains.

Minnesota took a step closer to joining Utah in making gold and silver legal tender. A Republican lawmaker there introduced a bill that sets up a special committee to explore the option. The Missouri legislators have taken this into account and laid out a system where an individual could deposit silver and gold coins into a vault and receive a debit card that would be connected to their coins precious metal value.

Other states have followed their lead and introduced similar bills – that remain to be passed – deeming gold and silver legal tender. Those states are Minnesota, North Carolina, South Carolina, Idaho and Georgia. Legalities associated with these metals being legal tender are different for each state.

Craig Franco hopes has opened a Gold and Silver Depository in Utah and hope to cash in on it. Why should he be the only one? The time is right to get into the game. Why should people have to wait until the Federal Reserve brings back the gold standard?

As you know the value of the dollar depreciates more and more while gold consistently goes up. People need to realize that the inevitable is coming and the dollar will be absolutely worthless. We need to start educating people that we have a unique economic gold system already in place.

People can afford to buy 999.9 pure 24 Karat gold in as little as one gram and up. This is LBMA approved and we have our own refineries. A great way to start buying gold is to open a savings account.

Okay, I liked the article until the very end. “an America where there is no Federal Reserve, no personal income tax and no IRS is not that hard to imagine.” WHAT. I could understand no income tax, with a federal reserve and just print money for everything and cause hyperinflation. I could understand income tax with no federal reserve. How would the government get money with no income tax and no Fed? Unless we cut out the government, military, every social program entirely. I wouldn’t object to that too much, but we HAVE to have at least a small government and small military.

There are many other forms of taxation other than an income tax.

And we could raise a lot of money with tariffs.

There are many ways that we could do things differently.

I so agree. It infuriates me that Americans let it happen and on top of that are so apathetic and ignorant that they continue to let it do what it does. What hope is there now, though?

The Federal Reserve was created to prevent recessions, keep employment high, and inflation low. How’s that working out for us?

The Fed was created to stop people from making independent judgments.

No it hasn’t. It’s a monopoly for the World Banks so that THEIR judgement would only matter.

Please read “The Creature from Jekyll Island,” Sir.

You disagree and then agree w/me.

The Fed is the main central (socialist) bank. Central banks are basically caused by philosophy, specifically collectivism and statism. Secret agreements are trivial and dependent upon a politics which supports secret agreements.

There is nothing socialist about the Federal Reserve or the US. If only we could be so lucky.

Your claim has no evidence, not even invalid evidence. It is arbitrary, refers to nothing, as if nothing has been said. You also contradict the very obvious 1914 Federal Reserve Act and the very obvious socialist parts of the economy: most land and bodies of water, schools, streets, many power and transporation “utilities,” “welfare,” etc. Within Marxism, however, capitalism exists if business has even the tiniest freedom or political power. Sadly, Marxism is false.

The Federal Reserve isn’t a public agency…this article explains how it isn’t held accountable to the American people…

A) All banks are privately owned

B) Federal Reserve Agency itself is not accountable to U.S. government…its a Non-government agency with power to rival that of actual government

Its funny…I’ve never yet met an Ayn Rand supporter who is actually Objective.

Youre evading the 1914 Federal Reserve Act. The GOVT web site for the Fed is

easily accessible. Private influence, ie, crony fascism, is not capitalism.

Agreed. However, crony fascism, is NOT socialism either. Socialists and capitalists, liberals and conservatives alike…need to be working TOGETHER to demand Constitutional reforms that will hold the government accountable for its actions.

While you were debating Partisan Politics…we just lost some more Rights.

Fascism is a variation of socialism in which property is nominally private.

You evade identifying a purpose for govt. The only rational purpose of govt is

protecting individual rights

(capitalism). Socialism, fascism, liberalism and conservatism violate infividual rights.

No I understand the purpose of government quite clearly.

***The Only form of Government (political structure) that protects Individual Rights is a CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY.***

Note: Capitalism and Socialism are both merely Socio-Economic systems.

They can both be used in ANY form of government (political structure).

Democracy + Socialism = Democratic Socialism

Democracy + Capitalism = Democratic Capitalism

Democracy + (Socialism + Capitalism) = Awesome!

Authoritarianism + Socialism = Fascism

Authoritarianism + Capitalism = Corporatism

Authoritarianism + (Capitalism + Socialism) = China

You fail to realize to realize the important distinction between Political and Economic systems…

because you are so hell bent on Partisan Politics

Compromise between individual rights and collectivism will benefit collectivism and destroy

rights in the non-Pragmatist long run.

@ Rudy Dent…The Fed is up in 2013…that just coincides with when the market crash (Dow down WELL under 6500). This week or next, the LARGEST Head and Shoulders pattern (Ending Diagonal in Elliott Wave Principal) is ending. Maybe this is what is needed to get enough anger from the sheep after they get slaughtered. It will be too late, but that is probably what is needed to make changes. People are just too comfortable right now.

Trash the Fed. Tar and feather Bernanke. Back to gold.

The federal reserve chairman is appointed by the President and each regional bank has an elected board of governors. All of this is hype and paranoia. The Fed controls interest rates and has helped us out of numerous panics since its beginnings in 1913. Stop the fear!

It is those same situations that arise that are created by them in the 1st place. Man, some folks are dense as hell.

Can you tell me when the first “depression” was in America, Jim? Not the first “panic,” but the first Depression?

The great depression was worse due to the Federal reserve and pretty much every historian agrees with that.

The Federal Reserve should have each member on the board from a different income bracket on the board. Ex: 1 member has an income of 50,000 or less, 2nd member between $50,000 and $75,000, 3rd between $75,000 and $100,000 etc… If the opinion of each class of the US in represented, maybe the decisions made would be more fair. And if you are making a 6 digit income, you probably don’t stop to think about us peons working 50 hrs a week and making less than $50,000 a year.

No, it needs to be removed from our country.

If the government just printed money willy-nilly as it pleased, that would completely undermine the very concept of money having value, namely that it is limited in quantity and tied to tangible or intangible wealth, whether it be gold or GDP.

I am concerned, however, with some of the things you said, such as how the Fed lends money to banks for next to nothing and the banks in turn use it to buy federal debt at a huge gain (not percentage wise but volume wise). That appears to be an outrageous Ponzi scheme that should be stopped immediately.

I don’t see why the Federal Reserve has to be a private organization. It deeply concerns me that it is. Very deeply. It appears to be unconstitutional since it waives the government’s responsibility to regulate currency to private parties. It could just as easily be part of the government and contain limits to prevent the limitless production of currency. The fact that it is private means that it is effectively a conglomerate of private banks who have the power to control and manipulate currency in such a way as to maximize their own profits regardless of the cost to the rest of society.

In 3 years we will have a total economic collapse

If the US government “theoretically” paid off its own debts, with or without the federal reserve it would cause massive inflation. You can’t just pretend you didn’t do something without expecting consequences (like borrow money)…we do need to get rid of the federal reserve, but not so that we can pretend we have absolute control over the currency, but to put it back where it belongs, in the hands of the market.

This entity ( FRB ) that is allowed to exist without any scrutiny is a shame on us.Why doesn’t congress get off there butts, stop campaigning and do something about this farce.Where is the outrage? There needs to be a grass root uprising. When these

so called servants of the people ( what a joke! ) are put on the spot and become concerned about reelection then and only then will they do something. We need to make these so called

“servants” get off their collective butts and react to this farce.

I can’t believe that there is no accountability.

Let your congressman know that this set up is unacceptable

and must be broken up..

A concerned citizen,

Abe Lincoln and JFK both attempted to end the Federal Reserve Banking System. What do they have in common?

Federal banking system didn’t exist in Lincolns time.

why chase bank is bad

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Why is there an ATM fee at Chase bank

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Re: Why is there an ATM fee at Chase bank

I used one of thier ATM's listed and I was still charged the 3.00 fee. BS!

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Re: Why is there an ATM fee at Chase bank

Thanks! there is one right next to me @ TCF Bank. whowuddathunkit.

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Re: Why is there an ATM fee at Chase bank

Just wanted to say, Well's Fargo does the same thing, except its more than three dollars.. It was almost four.

My problem is I have to wait almost a month to get my money , does anyone know why.

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Re: Why is there an ATM fee at Chase bank

I just got hit today for the $3.00 fee. It's amazing how they just whack you over the head with no warning. I have a local bank near me which only charges $1.50. I was using Chase for the longest, but I refuse to be ripped off.

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Re: Why is there an ATM fee at Chase bank

Well guys I found one Bancorp Bank in downtown Chicago which **bleep** don't know if they charge a ATM fee or not but this is the address 30 N La Salle St # 1420 Chicago, IL 60602 just for you guys who are close to downtown Chicago area good for you bad for me.. I really hope that there are more locations than this one bank in all of Chicagoland or suburbs.

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Re: Why is there an ATM fee at Chase bank

I too can confirm that I used a Bancorp ATM and it still wanted to charge me. Paypal needs to join the AllPoint network or something. I use this because it's more convenient than traditional banking, but that's been slowly changing for a while now.

My advice is to get cash back when shopping whenever possible and use credit union ATMs, which are often free.

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Re: Why is there an ATM fee at Chase bank

I used to go to chase, and just eat the $1 fee since chase is the bank I use anyway and it was convienient. $4 is ridiculous.

For everyone that isn't doing this already, you should certainly start. Go to a larger grocery store in your area, buy a $0.50 pack of gum, let it ring up tax, use your Paypal debit card w/pin, and select "get cash back". You can get cash back, up to the penny amount that you have in your paypal account. Most places don't, but occasionally a walmart or kroger will requier you to get cash back in increments of $20, so be careful. It's not nearly as convienient, but its fast, cheap, and you get free gum!